MINUTES
RELAYING PRACTICES SUBCOMMITTEE
September 8-11, 2008, Vancouver , BC, CA
Chair: T. S. Sidhu
Vice-Chair: R. Beresh
Webmaster: M.R. Dadash Zadeh
This page was last updated on Oct 6, 2008 by Mohammad
 
Introduction:
The Subcommittee met on September 10, 2008 with 23 members and 43 guests.
  • Approval of previous I minutes from Kansas City 2008 approved
  • I8 was dissolved and re-formed as I11. The WG name was changed to Guide for the Application of Optical Instrument Transformers for Protective Relaying and they requested a change from the previous 4:30pm time slot.
  • I14 requested to be disbanded and that a TF be formed to proceed with additional work (promotion/dual logo of C37.2). The new TF was formed as ITF2.
 
I1: Understanding Microprocessor-Based Technology Applied to Relaying
Chair: M.S. Sachdev
Vice-Chair: Ratan Das
Output:
PSRC Report
The Working Group did not meet during the PSRC meetings in Vancouver.  The WG report was submitted to the I Subcommittee members and only two comments were received.  The suggested changes were made and the report was submitted to the PSRC Officers.  Miriam Sanders and Bob Pettigrew approved the report.  Charlie Henville provided comments and the report has been modified to take care of those comments.  The report will be resubmitted in a couple of days to Charlie for approval.

Next meeting:  The WG does not plan to meet during the January 2009 PSRC meeting.
I2: Terminology Usage Review
Chair: M. J. Swanson
Vice-Chair: Barb Anderson
Output:
Definitions for C37.100 and IEEE Std. 100
The I2 working group met at 11:00 am on Tuesday, September 9, 2008 with six members and two guests. Mal Swanson chaired the meeting.

Minutes from the last meeting were approved.

As a note, I2 has caught up reviewing all of the available guides and standards.

Mal covered the problems we are having with getting our words into the IEEE 100 Dictionary through C37.100. We are having definitions updated on the PSRC website after each meeting so that they will be available to the membership.

C37.234: Oscar discussed the term, end-fault protection, with the Chairman of that working group to see if it should be blind spot protection. However, the section that used this term has not been finalized, nor has a diagram been completed. This issue will be discussed by that working group at some later time. Oscar will continue to follow this.

The working group discussed the term, fault bus protection, and approved a definition to be added to Group #6.

John Tengdin reviewed the work of C37.2, which has 17 acronyms that are not yet in the IEEE Dictionary. John will email Barb Anderson a copy of his talking points, which she will email to I2 members with the minutes.

C4 Working Group paper: The working group reviewed several of Roger Whittakers revised definitions from this document, which will be added to Group #6. Work will continue on the rest of these definitions at the January, 2009 meeting.

Barb Anderson will have the newest revision of Group #6 added to the website and emailed to working group members and Russ Patterson as DND6019.

The meeting was adjourned at 12:20 pm.
I3: Relay Functional Type Testing
Chair: J. Jodice
Vice-Chair: B. Gwyn
Output:
Report
The third meeting of I3 included 16 participants, with the recognition that more follow-up is required by the Officers to insure assignments are fulfilled on schedule.

KEY ISSUES
  1. At this time there is a backlog of four event-based reports overdue. It was determined an agenda will be issued two weeks prior to each meeting as a reminder of commitments.

  2. Of highest priority is the review of, and comments on the Drew Wilton created Report Format
    Objective: A consistent format will allow convenient access to the library as it grows in depth, and a search engine for this purpose is implemented.

  3. Prior assignments included a review of language used in both reference documents [CIGRE & PSRC] to insure a consistent language ,based on prior work.
    Mel Swansons WG will be requested to review & comment.
ASSIGNMENTS
  1. Tony Giuliante will investigate options for reissuing/access to presentations from various relay symposia. Recent presentation from both WPRC & TX A/M are of interest.

  2. The Chair will re-issue all prior Reference Materials, together with all WG assignments {both those that have been presented & those in backlog to insure everyone is on the same page.}
DISCUSSION
Info sources, discussed at I3:
  • Are the NERC disturbance Reports available? Who should be contacted?
    Tom Weideman, Phil Winston, and Bob Cummings will be contacted for their advice.

  • Should the Bob Dempsey & Tony Giuliante Ask the Experts forum be reactivated as a means to provide info on current-day practices?

  • With the level of interest in Basics of Protection due to new staff, should some process to re-issue past work be initiated??
The Chair recognizes the level of interest in this subject, and requests I.SC and Main Committee guidance, especially regarding access to prior PSRC reports.
I4: IEC Standards Advisory
Chair: E. A. Udren
Vice-Chair: M. M. Ranieri
Output:
Comments and votes to USNC of IEC on TC 95 (Measuring Relays) Standards, projects and drafts.  Reports to PSRC on IEC standards development.

WG meetings are continuing

The WG met on September 9.  We discussed the following TC 95 documents, some requiring a vote from USNC:

  • 95/238/CD 60255-127 - Functional standard for over/under voltage protection (first draft) (vote October 17) The structure is similar to -151, but only one curve shape is shown.  See if this is suitable for known applications of inverse-time overvoltage or undervoltage functions.

  • 95/235/CC and 95/236/CDV 60255-151 Functional standard for over/under current protection (vote November 14)  (comments on prior CD, and new CDV) This has been discussed at prior meetings, and looks good.

  • 95/237/RVC and 95/239/FDIS 60255-11 Ed. 2 - Voltage dips, short interruptions, variations and ripple on auxiliary power supply port vote September 19 - The test suite now includes checks for a full range of auxiliary power supply quality problems, including short interruptions to zero or partial voltage, and longer interruptions.  Ripple of 15% is specified at power frequency or twice power frequency.  The test includes gradual ramp up and down of supply, and reversal of supply polarity.  Depending on the problem, the relay must ride through the disturbance with no functional impact, or temporarily cease operation and resume when the supply is restored.  The WG decided in May to cast a favorable vote, with a request for declaration by manufacturers of how long temporary is (typically, relay reboot time). This US comment was rejected and the subject clause reworded in a way that does not call for declaration of reboot time.  The WG accepted to vote in favor, not arguing over this issue, and this vote has been submitted.
  • 95/234/RVD result on 95/230/FDIS IEC 60255-26, EMC Requirements - For RF immunity and ESD tests, IEC has less demanding compliance levels than IEEE C37.90.2 and .3.  For RF, IEC requires 10 V/m modulated, while IEEE calls for 18 V/m modulated & 35 V/m unmodulated field strength.  The IEC test is thus not a challenge for manufacturers testing to IEEE levels, and the US has consistently viewed it as inadequate and has voted negatively.  We cast a vote against this final standard with explanation; the standard passed and the vote tally is published.
  • 95/241/RVC and 95/242/FDIS IEC 60255-22-5, [Lightning] Surge Test vote October 31.  This is a high-energy surge with slow rise and fall and large energy content.  This is not like any IEEE surge test, and not representative of conditions in a substation control building.  It would be a good test for a device connected on a distribution feeder near where lightning might strike.  IEC requires this sort of surge test in general for electronic devices.  The US will vote in favor unless we hear points to the contrary
  • 95/240/DA Draft agenda for TC 95 meeting in Sao Paulo, Brazil in November Murty Yalla will attend for the US National Committee.
     TC 95 would like to meet at the IEC General Meeting in Seattle in 2009 and asked for US National Committee support.  According to USNC, we would have to raise about $18,000 to host this meeting, probably from supportive vendors and utilities.  The WG asked the Chair to go back to USNC and find out why so much.  This is a tough target, and the deadline is not known the Chair needs to inquire of some relay vendors and others to see if we can approach this goal.
Not reviewed at the meeting were TC 57 WG 10 documents for IEC 61850, Edition 2:
  • Part 7-1: Basic communication structure for substation and feeder equipment - Principles and models - Revision project initiated and CDV circulated with vote due in October.
  • Part 7-4: Basic communication structure - Compatible logical node classes and data classes CDV with vote was due in August.
  • Part 7-2: Basic information and communication structure - Abstract communication service interface (ACSI) Comments on CD circulated; new CDV circulated with vote due in October.
I5: Schematic Representation of Power System Relaying
Chair: Kevin Donahoe
Vice-Chair: Dave Zinn
Output:
Report
The Working Group met for the fourth time for a single session with 15 members and 8 guests totaling 23 attendees on Wednesday, May 14, 2008.

 We started off with a review and approval of the minutes from May, followed by introductions and discussion of proprietary and patent information.  We reviewed that at present the assignment of the Working Group is to produce a report.

 Karl Zimmerman gave a presentation on the commissioning of logic based protection schemes.  It was noted that previously schematics would be used extensively to perform commissioning with certainty.  Logic based schemes require new tools.

Lively discussion of both the presentation and new issues followed and were used to add to our working table of contents.  It was also requested that members find time to look at C37.2 and come to the January meeting to discuss how and which new terms might be good to incorporate.

Next meeting Jim OBrien and Jim Platt are scheduled to give presentations and we will discuss a sample schematic from Jeff Long.

WG will need a meeting room accommodating 30 along with a projector.

The WG has completed its task and was disbanded at the Subcommittee meeting.
I6: Practical Application of Rogowski Coil Applications to Relaying
Chair: Ljubomir Kojovic
Vice-Chair: Bob Beresh
Output:
Report
WG I6 met with 11 people. In Lubos absence Bob Beresh led the WG meeting. Lubos outline was reviewed and received by the WG as a good starting point. There seems to be enough interest in this work to proceed. No assignments were handed out but work can begin by distilling some of the information from the previous document into the appropriate sections given in the outline.
I8: Guide for Application of Optical Currrent & Voltage Systems
Chair: Harley Gilleland
Vice-Chair:Bruce Pickett
Output:
IEEE Guide

  • The meeting was called to order by the Chair Harley Gilleland. There were 10 members and 2 guests. All members and guest were introduced. Issues that need attention were discussed they included the new Team Leaders Michael Mendik for Application Issues and Farnoosh Rahmatian for Performance. and Michael Mendik will be the WG Webmaster and interface with the SC Webmaster.

  • There was in-depth discussion on the strategy for accelerating progress in developing the Guide focusing on the four Sections of the Guide where the most support is needed. The strategy includes using the PSRC Core group and electric utilities with experience in optical sensor technology for developing the Guide.

  • We discussed that we are asking the Subcommittee to dissolve the I08 Working Group and establish and approve a new Working Group with a new number. The new Working Group would develop a Guide for The Application of Optical Instrument Transformers for Protective Relaying

  • The Working Group also request that our meeting in Atlanta be rescheduled to the 11:00 am time slot on Tuesday to avoid conflict with other Working Groups in the 4:30 pm slot which keeps some of our key members from attending the I08 session.

I9: Revision of C37.105 - Standard For Qualifying Class 1E Protective Relays And Auxiliaries For Nuclear Power Generating Stations
Chair: Sahib Usman
Vice-Chair: Roy Ball
Output:
Revision of C37.105
The WG did not meet
I10: C37.98-1987 - Standard for Seismic Testing of Relays
Chair: M. Nemier
Vice-Chair: M. Bajpai
Output:
Revision of IEEE Standard C37.98
The WG did not meet
I14: Revision of C37.2-1996, Device Function Numbers
Chair: John Tengdin
Vice-Chair: D. Holstein
Output:
Revision of Standard C37.2-1996 joint with Substation WG C5

The PSRC WG I14 met in a joint session on Tuesday with Substations WG C5. The basic assignment of the joint working group has been completed, and IEEE C37.2-2008 was approved by IEEE SA Board at its June 2008 meeting, and publication of the document is expected by the end of September. John Tengdin will make a presentation at the Thursday Main Committee meeting describing the substantial changes in the 2008 revision. Those are summarized in the attached "Talking Points" document and PowerPoint slides that we ask be posted on the I Subcommittee web site. What remains is to publicize this revision with information to the local chapters of PES and IAS. John Tengdin will make the first of those summary presentations on September 18 in Orange County, CA. In addition, he is the keynote speaker (on the topic of the C37.2 changes) at the Nuclear Relay Conference in San Diego on September 24.

This 2008 revision includes a detailed three page cross reference table to IEC 61650, and thus the joint working group feels that C37.2-2008 is an ideal candidate for the IEEE SA Dual Logo Program. Since this task is beyond the original assignment of Working Group I14, we ask that WG I14 be abandoned as its task is complete. The PES Substations Committee will explore how dual logos are created and, if necessary, ask PSRC I Relaying Practices Subcommittee to establish a Task Force for liaison purposes for this effort. At this writing, no meeting of I14 nor its offshoot task force is planned for the Atlanta meeting.

I15: Revision of C37.110, IEEE Guide for the Applications of Current Transformers Used for Protective Relaying Purposes
Chair: G.P. Moskos
Vice-Chair: B. Jackson
Output:
Revision of IEEE C37.110-1996
Working Group I15 meet at this meeting. The working group met with only one member. We discussed what is required to write a Summery Paper. The IEEE SA Standrds Board approved the standard on December 5, 2007. IEEE Standard C37.110 -2007 was published on April 7, 2008. Beginning at September 2008 meeting, the working group will meet to start on the Summary Paper.
I17: Trends in Relay Performance
Chair: W.M. Carpenter
Vice-Chair: J.D. Wardlow
Output:
Periodic Reports to Subcommittee

The working group met with 4 members and 9 guests on Tuesday September 9, 2008. The existing report covers 7 years of data from 2000 through 2006. Eight companies participated in all or a portion of the years. The largest participation was 7 companies in 2001; the smallest participation was 2 in 2006. The 2007 data will be gathered prior to the January meeting and will be published as a report on the subcommittee web site. In the meeting Oncor presented additional breakdowns of the data for Oncor and the changes that Oncor has made over this time period to improve performance.

I18: Anomaly Checks for Relay Settings
Chair: Peter McLaren
Vice-Chair: M. Nagpal
Output:
Report

The WG met for a single session with 8 members and 12 guests

The WG set out to consider the draft questions for manufacturers but made no progress beyond the first question which concerned the security of access to the relay. Manufacturers felt that security was not within the remit of the WG, nor conveyed in the title of the WG. This led to a discussion of the purpose of the WG during which we heard that relay engineers were having a tough time (overwhelmed) with the setting process and anything which helped to avoid wrong settings would be welcome. There was general agreement that, as things stand, if an unauthorized person gains access to the relay through its setting software there was nothing which could prevent wrong settings getting on to the relay. The Chair felt that there at least should be some means (a shell) for recognizing ridiculous or random settings as might be imposed by a hacker but agreed that a 10% change in a setting would be impossible to detect by such  means. Some engineers did not want to see any restriction on their ability to set the relay as they saw fit.

The draft of questions for manufacturers will be revised in the light of these discussions and considered at the next meeting.

We will meet for a single session at the next meeting, 20 people and need a CP.

The WG will produce a report on relay software features and setting practices which minimize the possibility of wrong settings being downloaded to a relay. The WG will commence its task by conducting a survey of relay manufacturers and utilities to get information on present practice.
I19: Protective Relaying and Redundancy
Chair: S. Ward
Vice-Chair: B. Gwyn
Output:
Report to the main committee

Assignment: Produce a special report addressing redundancy considerations for relaying.

Completion date: September 2009

The Working Group met for a single session with 21 members and 17 guests in attendance on September 9, 2008.

We had an update on the NERC SPCTF reliability draft standard by Jon Sykes. It was decided that this future standard will not be referenced in the paper, but the applicable wording from the old standard.

The SPCTF standard is supported by a technical paper that is in draft form, to be finalized in the November time frame. We will extract information that may complement our report and incorporate it in our document.

Draft 5 of the report was reviewed and only a few writing assignments are still outstanding. Chair will prompt for the missing sections. Assignments for review of sections were handed out and the final review process is planned to start at the January meeting.

The report is about 90% complete. Changes made at the meeting will be incorporated into Draft 6 that will be sent out all members with the minutes. Outstanding assignments are due to the Chair by December 15.

The working group will meet in January for a single session, 30 people, with computer projector, to start final review of the report.
I20: Revision of C37.90.1 SWC Tests
Chair: Tom Beckwith
Vice-Chair: Tom Tennille
Output:
Revision of C37.90.1 SWC Tests
The fourth meeting of the Working Group (WG) I20 met on September 9, 2008 in Vancouver, BC in a single session with 10 Members, including 1 new member, and 3 Guests.

 The chair showed the slides of the Highlights of the IEEE-SA Standards Board Bylaws on Patents in Standards.

Due to work and pending retirement, Tom Tennille has resigned as Vice Chair. Jeff Burnworth volunteered to serve in his place.

The Minutes of Meeting #3 in Kansas City on May 13, 2008 were approved as submitted.

 Review of IEEE PC37.90.1 Draft 3 edits.
The Working Group reviewed the initial changes from Draft 2 to Draft 3.

Review Working Group Assignments
Tom Beckwith presented a proposed revision of the Note from Example 1 and 6 of Annex D. The Annex D revisions should now be complete.

Barb Beckwith reported that, in a comparison of the terms appearing in Clause 3. Definitions of our standard with those listed in The Authoritative Dictionary of IEEE Standards Terms, 7th Edition, some terms are listed and some are not.

Barb will continue to review the document for consistent usage of terms as defined in the Definitions and as employed in the Standard.

Barb Beckwith volunteered to import the present Draft 3 into the IEEE Standards Template and begin using this tool to identify any changes necessary to comply with the latest 2007 Style Manual.

Coordination issues with other standards.
 Bob Beresh is a member of P1613-2003 Environmental and Testing Requirements for Communications Networking Devices in Electric Utility Substations and will continue to report on any coordination issues between the two groups.

 To coordinate with the IEEE Transformer Committee, Tom Beckwith contacted Craig Colopy, the Chairman of C57.15 IEEE Standard Requirements, Terminology, and Test Code for Step-Voltage Regulators, which cites C37.90.1-2002 in the Control system requirements. Tom will continue to keep his working group informed of I20 activities. This was particularly timely as they are considering seeking dual IEEE/IEC logo for their standard.

Tom Beckwith presented a brief review of the deviations to IEC Standards that were identified in C37.90.1-2002, Annex E.

 Jeff Burnworth presented the comparison table Mario Ranieri and he created that identifies the differences between the latest versions of the appropriate IEC Standards to IEEE Std C37.90.1-2002. Discussion was initiated with the IEC requirement to apply the oscillatory waveform with both a positive and negative 1st cycle polarity. The WG does not see adequate reason to test in both polarities, but conclude to formulate a request to IEC to provide an explanation. A formal request to the appropriate IEC Technical Committee will be generated following the completion of the review, in order to include all issues.

Working Group Assignments
After the January 2008 meeting, an Explanation was submitted in response to a Request for Interpretation of C37.90.1-2002. Tom Beckwith will review the response and determine how Clause 8.2 Common mode tests and Clause 8.3 Transverse mode tests may be edited to improve clarity.

Barb Beckwith to import the existing draft standard into the latest IEEE format.

The Working Group was asked to carefully review and comment on the comparison tables generated by Jeff Burnworth and Mario Ranieri.

Requirements for next meeting in January: Single session; 20 attendees; Computer Projector.
 
Task Force Reports:
ITF1: Relay Services Letter Database
Chair: J. Jodice
Output:
Service Letter Database
Discussion at I TF1 meeting of 10 September resulted in the following actions:
  1. This TF effort should be recognized by the Long Term Planning group as an ongoing task force, the scope of which may change depending upon limitations imposed by NERC, by commercial inter-utility concerns, and by copyright.{other rule-making bodies?}
  2. Many prior attendees have not received copies of Minutes. Chair will send any useful prior presentation materials& the September -08 Minutes.
  3. Charlie Henville will be asked to contact those relay manufacturers offering product in North America & request a bibliography of Advisories for PSRC Member use.
    There is no question about the value of older advisories due to the large number of electromechanical relays which remain in service. There are about 60 available now. At present there are no advisories on newer [solid-state]designs, nor on numerical relays    .
  4. Bob Dempsey and Jeff Pond will locate the files of advisories at their respective companies, and provide copies for the I TF1 library.
  5. The Chair will resend Doble portal access directions to everyone who has attended past sessions to insure availability of info.
ITF8: Revision to Guide for Grounding of Instrument Transformer Secondary Circuits and Cases
Chair: B. Muligan
Vice-Chair: Bruce Magruder
Output:
Revision of IEEE/ANSI C57.13.3-2005
The Task Force ITF8, Revision of C57.13.3 - Guide for Grounding of Instrument Transformer Secondary Circuits and Cases, met in Waterford II, Hilton Vancouver Metrotown, Burnaby, BC, Canada on September 10, 2008.  Two members and four guests were present.

The Task Force discussed the plan to review the relevant IEC standards related to the grounding of instrument transformer secondary circuits and cases.  The Chair will contact Eric Udren to obtain a contact for IEC work in this area.  The Task Force has a list of IEC documents to review to find relevant information.  The Chair will assign each member a group of IEC standards to study.  The Task Force will need two more sessions to develop an outline of work, and will submit a proposal to the I Sub-Committee for review.  If the proposal is accepted, a working group will be formed.

Rich Young has become a member of the Task Force.

The Task Force will meet in Atlanta in January 2009 to discuss the outline of what sections of the guide can be revised to include the applicable IEC standards.  We will use the Wednesday 8:00 a.m. time slot, room for 25 people, and will need a computer projector.

At the conclusion of this business, the meeting was adjourned.
 
Liaison Reports:

The Instrument Transformer sub committee will next meet in October.  No change in (C 57.13) since last PSRC meeting report.
Coordination Reports:
None to report .
Old business:
None to report .
New Business:
None to report.
 
Respectfully submitted,
T.S. Sidhu, Chairman, Relaying Practices Subcommittee